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MKULTRA Pt 3: Sydney Gottlieb, Operation Paperclip, Midnight Climax & CIA Science Fiction!

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On today’s episode of the Occult Symbolism and Pop Culture with Isaac Weishaupt podcast we continue our 4-part MKULTRA deep dive!  In Part 3 we’ll cover the authoritative source on the man running MKULTRA: Dr Sydney Gottlieb. It will cover the nazi origins of MKULTRA, Operation Paperclip, origins of the terms used in the program, George Hunter White and Operation Midnight Climax and all the FREAKS within the CIA.

In Part 4 we’ll cover Cathy O’Brien’s TRANCEformation of America book where we get the theory about sex slaves and Project MONARCH. We’ll also briefly look at Tom O’Neill’s CHAOS book about Charles Manson being a subject in the experiments!

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Isaac Weishaupt is a prominent author, researcher and host of the Occult Symbolism and Pop Culture podcast since 2014, where he explores the hidden meanings behind pop culture, conspiracies and esoteric philosophy. With a background in engineering and a deep interest in occult systems, Isaac bridges the gap between mainstream entertainment and the arcane by decoding the symbols, rituals and belief systems woven into films, music and celebrity culture. He’s written several books on Illuminati symbolism, occultism, secret societies and the paranormal. Drawing on a mix of research, intuition and cultural analysis, Isaac offers a critical yet accessible lens on the forces shaping the modern world from the shadows…

Isaac hosts the Occult Symbolism and Pop Culture podcast (supported by Patreon) and “Breaking Social Norms” podcast. He has been a featured guest on History Channel’s UnXplained, Coast to Coast AM, Tin Foil Hat podcast (honorary member of Mount Crushmore), The Confessionals, Eddie Bravo’s “Look Into It,” Ground Zero with Clyde Lewis, Chris Jericho’s “Talk is Jericho,” Richard Syrett’s “Strange Planet,” House Inhabit’s Substack, “Those Conspiracy Guys,” Dave Navarro’s “Dark Matter Radio,” Richard C. Hoagland’s “Other Side of Midnight”, SIRIUS/XM’s The All Out Show, The HigherSide Chats, VICE, COMPLEX magazine, Esquire, Newsweek, The Atlantic and many more radio shows and podcasts. His fresh perspective and openly admitted imperfections promotes the rational approach to exploring these taboo subjects and theories.

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Full Transcript (Courtesy of all show Supporters):

*Note that this is pretty accurate- not 100% though. It’s run through software that is generally very accurate and then I give it a quick once over but there are most likely some errors.

[00:00:00] The CIA spent decades trying to invent mind control by violating its victims free will. And they failed. They didn’t fail because they didn’t torture people. They didn’t fail because they didn’t drug prisoners, patients, soldiers and civilians. They failed because mind control may only exist in fiction. And fiction is what convinced them it was real. Today we’re talking about the director of the CIA MK ULTRA program, Sidney Gottlieb, by going through the book Poisoner in Chief, the most important MK ULTRA book ever written. From Nazis and bioweapons to lsd, sex traps, assassinations. And the moment the CIA realized they built an entire program chasing a fantasy. Join me here on part three of the MK Ultra Deep Dive series.

[00:00:47] That’s right, we’re doing the deep dive of MK Ultra. We’re on part three already. Can you believe it?

[00:00:53] Part one, we talked about MK ULTRA as a basic primer with some pop culture examples and David McGowan’s book program To Kill.

[00:01:00] Part two, we talked about a book called Secrets and Lies by Gordon Thomas.

[00:01:04] And it went through the whole program through the eyes of William Buckley, one of the CIA agents involved. And it talked about some of the occult aspects through Operation Often, as well as some of the figures and characters and scientists involved, which some of this material is going to come up again today when we go through the book Poisoner in Chief, that is the MK Ultra program through the eyes of Sydney. Got le where we’re going to learn more about Operation Paperclip, Operation Midnight Climax, and all these horny nerds and so on. And then next, the final. And part four, which we’re gonna do next week, is going to be about Kathy o’ Brien’s transformation of America and a little bit on Charles Manson from Tom o’ Neill’s book Chaos, which we’re gonna mention Project Chaos today because it shows up in the book. Okay? So without further ado, my timestamp losers, two minutes. We’re already starting chapter one.

[00:01:59] We’re getting into it. Sydney Golib, this guy, he was born and destined to be a nerd, a mad scientist, if you will.

[00:02:10] He had a club foot. He was unable to walk and had a bunch of surgeries. And he could kind of walk, but he was bullied, right?

[00:02:18] Which is always tragic. You know, I’m not pro bullying.

[00:02:24] And he developed a stutter. So like, he’s already off to a bad start, right?

[00:02:30] And he would get a PhD at the California Institute of Technology.

[00:02:35] And this is where he met his wife, Margaret Moore Gottlieb. There’s not a whole lot to talk about with her. She was this pacifist, a non violent Quaker, which is very ironic. When we learned about Sydney Gottlieb.

[00:02:50] Now, Sydney, he tried to enlist in the military, but because of his club foot, he couldn’t. So he’s like, all right, I’ll do civilian government work, right?

[00:02:57] And he ends up being CIA for life.

[00:03:01] He was cooking up poisons and gadgets and participating in assassinations, or at least helping the operatives do assassinations, I should say.

[00:03:13] Including like a CIA coup in Congo.

[00:03:17] This is in 1960. We were doing regime change for of their prime minister.

[00:03:21] Sounds familiar.

[00:03:25] Now his nickname, as you could expect, is Sid, which I found ironic because the nickname for LSD or acid is Sid.

[00:03:34] Kind of. Kind of prophetic in a way too, right?

[00:03:38] So the book goes through who he was and is upbringing us on. Okay, Nerd. Basically. Then we get into Operation Paperclip a little bit and we talk about how The Nazis and Dr. Kurt Bloma, he was the director of the Nazis, doing studies that were basically the. The predecessor to MK Ultra.

[00:04:00] And Kurt Bloma got arrested by counterintelligence agents and taken to a castle where they had all these Nazis like Werner von Braun, IG Farben, all these people right there was having a good old party. And Kurt Bloma was important to the Nazis. He had moved up in the Nazi party because of his research into the effects of testing germs and viruses on prisoners. And he was gassing people and crazy stuff, right?

[00:04:29] And what also another thing he was doing was he would feed psychoactive drugs and mescaline to victims or subjects in order to try and shatter the mind. And this was kind of the early seeds of MK Ultra mind control.

[00:04:48] So that should tell you how evil this whole thing is.

[00:04:51] So naturally, the CIA was like, oh, you know what? We should hire this guy. Let’s bring him on over, let’s give him a little funding, let’s get him over here to do a little testing in America too.

[00:05:03] Now, at the same time, the Japanese were also employing bioweapons along with the Nazis.

[00:05:08] And Roosevelt caught wind of all this, right? So Roosevelt, he starts the War Research Service because he’s like, well, we got to study biowarfare too, right? And these are very much, you know, you got to put things in, into perspective that this was 100 years ago, right? This is different times, you know, today it’s immoral, right? I mean, it should have been back then too, of course, but it’s immoral to kill massive Amounts of people with germ weapons.

[00:05:37] But this was a real threat back then from the, the. The Axis forces, the Nazis and the Japanese, because they were studying this stuff. So our government was like, well, you know, we got to figure out how this works.

[00:05:51] Then we’re introduced to Sidney Gottlieb’s mentor, Ira Baldwin. This is from his days at undergrad at the University of Wiscon.

[00:06:00] This guy was a bacteriologist, and he told the military that it was possible to build a hermetically sealed container in which you could build bioweapons on a large scale.

[00:06:11] So, you know, Roosevelt, he’s like, I’m interested in that. Churchill’s like, count me into whatever, whatever. So Ira is tasked to make this happen. And what he does is he builds the bioweapon complex at Fort Detrick.

[00:06:25] All the scientists that go to this Fort Detrick, they’re signing these vows of silence to secrecy, which we’ll come back to by the end of this book with Sidney Gottlieb, by the way.

[00:06:37] So even with Ira Baldwin doing all this bio setup, we were still way behind on the Nazis and their. Their research. So when the war was over, America wanted to bring them over. Roosevelt was like, I don’t think so. That’s bad optics, all right.

[00:06:57] But you’ll never guess what happens to Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

[00:07:03] I’ll tell you what happens.

[00:07:04] So the Nazi intel chief, Reinhard galen, surrenders in 1945. And this is right after.

[00:07:13] So to. To finish the thought on Roosevelt, he dies.

[00:07:17] He says, look, I don’t want to bring any Nazis over. Bad optics. Then he dies.

[00:07:22] I mean, I don’t know, maybe, right? He dies. And this is just months before the end of World War II. This is April of 1945. Dies of a brain hemorrhage or something like that, and Harry Truman becomes president. Harry Truman, you know him. He don’t. He don’t give a good damn about nothing. He’s like, bring them Nazis in asap. I want to get down on some of that Nazi action.

[00:07:46] So all these Nazis, they agree they’re going to give up all these.

[00:07:51] All these, like, things. Enabled to stay alive, basically. So army is like, and now we’re under Truman, right? And they set up the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency to hire these Nazis.

[00:08:06] Because another aspect to it, to play devil’s advocate, the Soviets, who we were allies with In World War II, albeit communist, they were apparently trying to entice the Nazi scientists over to their side. And we knew that these were guys are going to be Our enemies in the Cold War somehow.

[00:08:28] So we’re now in this German castle and there’s clerks that were setting up all these. All these Nazis paper files. And they use paper clips to mark which ones were the desired Nazis, which is where the term comes from. Operation Paperclip, of course, authorized by Harry Truman. And we would pull in over 700 Nazis at the initial sort of tranche there. And what they did was they would adjust the buyout, the. The biographies of the Nazis.

[00:08:57] It was a process called bleaching.

[00:09:01] And they wanted to make them sound softer than they were so they could get them onto these government contracts. And it becomes enticing because these Nazis, again, way ahead of us as far as technology studies into mind control, bioweapons, rocketry, you. You name it, right? They got it all.

[00:09:18] And this all happened at Cransberg Castle in Frankfurt.

[00:09:22] Not. Not the Velsburg Castle that has all the occult stuff with the, you know, King Arthurian, legendary stuff in it.

[00:09:31] And in the book it says that Operation Paperclip was originally called Operation Overcast. I don’t know why that is. Maybe it was cloudy that day, I guess.

[00:09:40] But the book rattles off a list of these horrific experiments in the biolab research of the Japanese and a thing called the unit 731. And you could look this up because I’m not going through all of them. There’s a ton of them. I mean, like, it’s like pure evil stuff, right? They were taking prisoners of war, you know, Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, Americans, everyone. They didn’t care who. And they would infect them with bubonic plague, anthrax, tuberculosis.

[00:10:11] They would. They would freeze people’s limbs. They would do dissections with no anesthesia. They would remove your organs. They would test the human body alive with weapons, you know, grenades, flamethrowers.

[00:10:23] They were forcing pregnancies so they could study the infants. They were injecting people with STIs. They were messing around with fetuses.

[00:10:31] There was.

[00:10:32] The book says there was forced.

[00:10:36] How do you say this, relations between related people.

[00:10:42] They had high pressure chambers where they would put the victims in until their eyes popped out of their head. They would inject air into the veins. I mean, crazy stuff. This is the kind of stuff. And that list is a mixture of stuff I found in the book and stuff I found online.

[00:10:59] Then there’s even more, if you can believe that. But this is the kind of stuff that makes you think, okay, let’s. Let’s put things into perspective. Is. Is America and the CIA that evil? Or are they doing the necessary work to somehow mitigate or prevent or counteract these things these our enemies are doing?

[00:11:22] Or maybe this is all just propaganda. It could be. I mean, we are very propagandized in America.

[00:11:30] So World War II ends. It’s now September 1945, because as you know, in July of 1945, Harry S. Truman, he, you know, the Trinity bomb, the atomic bomb, the world changes and so on, right?

[00:11:45] So September 1945, World War II ends.

[00:11:49] Truman abolishes the OSS, which is like the predecessor to the CIA, because now we’re officially in peacetime. But then just two years later, in 1947, he changes his mind and he signs the National Security act, which permanently makes a CIA.

[00:12:03] All right, as, as was discussed in my two part 1947 series with the great Joel Thomas from a couple months ago.

[00:12:11] So the National Security act was written by Alan Dulles, who as you heard in part two, was a major part of MK Ultra.

[00:12:21] Until JFK gets in there, he fires his ass, right?

[00:12:27] But Alan Dallas writes all this stuff, right? And the CIA, they start out in Europe, you know, trying to shut down communism and breaking up union strikes because I guess being in a union is akin to communism, something like that.

[00:12:42] Then we’ve got for what happened before Dietrich. Well, they shifted gears. They were kind of done looking at bioweapons and they’re like, well, let’s look at nuclear stuff because they’re trying to keep busy. And in 1949, they create the Special Operations Division to study drug usage.

[00:13:01] This included negotiation techniques. All right?

[00:13:05] And at the time they thought the Soviet Union had mastered all this. Again, it goes back to the idea that we were obsessed with the idea that the Soviets were brainwashing and we needed to crack the code too.

[00:13:18] The book shifts gears and goes back to 1943 with Abby Hoffman, who finds ergot hallucinations in his research.

[00:13:28] And this goes back to witchcraft of the Middle Ages, because ergot is a fungus that grows on the grains and causes hallucinations. And it’s the ancestor to lsd. Right, so Hoffman actually accidentally sort of created LSD from ergot. I don’t know if it’s accidental, but he created LSD from Urgot.

[00:13:50] And back in the medieval times, people didn’t realize what was going on. And they thought, you know, people were being possessed by devils. And some even say that that’s what the Salem Witch Trials was actually all about. They just didn’t know it because they didn’t know what it was at the time.

[00:14:06] And the book also talks about psilocybin a bunch. We’ll go through that.

[00:14:10] And the early accounts of ceremonies by Mexican Indians showing which doctors using mushrooms for divination purposes to predict the future. You know, so the.

[00:14:26] At Fort Detrick, they. There was experiments as well, because they had caught wind. And we’ll go through the background of how they caught wind of LSD through mushrooms and so on. But. But at Fort Detrick, they were like, let’s study this stuff. Let’s figure out if we can weaponize psychoactive agents like mescaline and LSD and all these other drugs, right?

[00:14:48] Because the scientists there thought they could use psychochemical warfare. And they thought, like, this would be more humane than just slaughter human beings, right?

[00:14:56] So the director of CIA is reading all these ideas, and he wants the President to allow the CIA to now work with these nerds at Fort Detrick in 1950, right? So Dietrich would end up creating these drugs and the CIA would use them for experiments. And this was Project mk, Naomi. All right, that’s what we talked about in the last part where we know that it’s called Naomi because Sidney Gottlieb, his favorite cousin’s name was Naomi.

[00:15:30] And here again, we also learned that the term MK is actually just a reference that means technical services staff.

[00:15:38] Okay?

[00:15:39] So the special operations were testing a whole bunch of stuff. They were doing stuff like spraying chemicals and seeing how fast they could spread. And then there was an interesting story that in 1950, they had spread these quote unquote harmless red germs into San Francisco because San Francisco was foggy enough to disguise these germs being aerated.

[00:16:06] Of course, they told nobody about it, right? They just sprayed all these chemical. These germs. These red germs covered all of San Francisco, even Oakland. And it reported that 11 people had went to the emergency room for having.

[00:16:23] They took a leak and it was covered. It was like red, right?

[00:16:26] And one of it says one of them even died.

[00:16:30] I mean, this is the kind of stuff they were doing.

[00:16:33] And the. The kicker is they found this. It was called Operation Cease Ray. They found that this was a successful, successful simulation.

[00:16:44] So in 1950, Gottlieb’s unit in the CIA there, they were like, okay, we’re gonna take this thing and look at it through the per. The prospects of mind control, right? With Project Bluebird against the idea that prisoners could sing like a bird if they’re interrogating them, if they could give them this drug.

[00:17:05] And at this time, General Smith takes over the CIA, and hires Alan Dulles, who, again, he was obsessed with Carl Young and the ideas of how to master the psyche. He advocated to do mind control stuff.

[00:17:24] Alan Dawson’s a whole price. I. I’d be curious to read a whole book about him, too. Interesting guy. His name keeps coming up. Right.

[00:17:33] The book. And I’m kind of shifting gears a little bit here because I’m just pulling out the stuff I find interesting.

[00:17:39] Talks about the Nazis were actually doing human hunting, which is just like we talked about in Part one with the Hunt, that movie, and what we’ll talk about in Part four, because Kathy o’ Brien claims that she witnessed the same thing through Darth Chaney, of all people.

[00:18:00] All right, so the Nuremberg after the. So at the end of World War II, Nuremberg results included the sort of code of ethics. And the book points out the irony how America didn’t even bother to employ any of these ethics at any of their sites. This is what the book says. It says judges at Nuremberg had condemned Nazi doctors for violating universal principles that must always govern experiments on human beings. In their verdict, they enumerated these principles, which became known as the Nuremberg Code, to justify the punishments, punishments they meted out and to set immutable laws for future generations.

[00:18:39] No copy of the Nuremberg Code is known to have hung at Camp King or any of the other places where Bluebird teams experimented on prisoners.

[00:18:48] If it had, experimenters might have been drawn to its first and most essential principle required is the voluntary, well informed understanding, consent of the human subject in a full legal capacity.

[00:19:04] So it goes through the. The hypocrisy of all this. Right. And though the book goes through a list of all these attempted pursuits they were doing, the most intriguing one of all is Alter Egos says in the book, can we alter a person’s personality? And how will it hold? This is the idea of fracturing the psyche and creating alter egos is something that we’ve talked about all the time with pop culture and celebrities who say they’re under.

[00:19:30] They’re under possession of these, you know, Sasha Fierce and Roman Zansky and all this stuff.

[00:19:36] So Alan D. And CIA director Richard Helms, they were members of Bluebird. And the verdict on Bluebird was that they needed deeper research into all these topics of mind control.

[00:19:49] That’s why it was a predecessor to MK Ultra.

[00:19:54] Then we go back to 1951 and Sidney Gottlieb a little bit more on him, of course. Total weirdo, right? And he was a.

[00:20:03] Ironically, a socialist in high school.

[00:20:06] He lived in a cabin with his family on this giant, you know, out in the middle of nowhere on a big piece of land.

[00:20:13] But even with his socialist leanings, he was still chosen to be the head scientist for CIA mind control from Alan Dulles, which is also curious, right? Because this is the Cold War, and we’re like, oh, my God, all these communists got to go, right?

[00:20:28] And this was pre.

[00:20:31] This is beatnik era. This is pre hippie. So it makes me think this could have been part of the influence for the hippie movement being manufactured through Charles Manson.

[00:20:43] Now, 1951 Alan Dulles, he’s like, okay, Bluebird, It’s. It’s not quite there enough. Let’s. Let’s. Let’s make this a bigger program. So, like, they call it Project Artichoke, as per Sidney Gottlieb, which, as I talked about in the last part, the last episode, it’s because that was his favorite vegetable.

[00:21:03] Now, this book says it. Is that also, it could be a reference to a New York gangster called the Artichoke King, who was the underboss of the Morello crime family.

[00:21:15] And from here, you can go into all kinds of conspiracies about how the mob is closely associated with intelligence agencies, from assassinations to omerta to, you know, vows of silence and all that stuff, right? So it’s kind of interesting there. I don’t know which one it is so 1950s, you know, we were going through the Red Scare. And just like we talked about in the last episode, a CIA agent named Edward Hunter spreads fear of brainwashing into the mass media.

[00:21:51] And he was part of, you know, all these things. CIA, Project Mockingbird.

[00:21:55] And the name for brainwashing comes from Chinese letters that mean Washington brain, which is interesting, right?

[00:22:02] Anyways, he was spreading fear of psychological warfare at a level we’ve never seen in America at the time.

[00:22:08] And this all leads into the Cold War stuff. And he was telling us that, look, these. These Soviets, these Communists, they’re going to brainwash us, and we will be duped into their New World Order.

[00:22:25] And it does make you wonder if all those New World Order conspiracies originate from the intelligence agencies, because that’s basically where this one came from, right?

[00:22:36] And. And that seems to be a big. Not to get on a soapbox, but that seems to be a thing, is if you can create an enemy, you can justify a lot of horrific things and take away people’s rights and so on.

[00:22:50] So Dulles and the CIA, they start buying into their own propaganda, and they start getting more intense about trying to crack the code of mind control through LSD and artichoke. And they start abusing participants. Right. It wasn’t just a casual intrigue at this point. Now it’s like, wait a minute, are the Soviets really brainwashing? We really gotta, we gotta do this. We gotta, we gotta violate this Nuremberg code of ethics.

[00:23:18] Including Dulles had hired a hypnotist to teach them how to put women into trances and essay them.

[00:23:30] And he proceeds to try to trans women into like making them flirt with men that they normally wouldn’t.

[00:23:37] And my brain is like, excuse me.

[00:23:40] I mean, this is what the book says. I would venture that these guys were doing a lot worse things to these women. I even wonder if this was Charles Manson type stuff because, you know, he had the Manson family and he would sort of order his, his women to perform on men who would visit the family.

[00:24:01] It’s too close for comfort for me. I was like, whoa.

[00:24:04] I’m like firmly convinced Manson was part of this whole operation.

[00:24:09] They were actually first trying to use THC as a mind control drugs. They called it the td, the truth drug.

[00:24:17] Then they tried coke, then they tried heroin, then mescaline, which the Nazis were testing at Dachau. But none of these drugs work like they wanted. So it was in 1951 that Sidney Gottlieb tries LSD on himself to see if this could be the answer.

[00:24:32] And, and as the book goes on, you’ll find out Sidney Galle did acid over 200 times in his life. That’s a lot of, a lot of trips.

[00:24:42] So they went from that to testing other CIA agents, to testing other CIA agents without their awareness because Sidney Golly wanted lsd, LSD to be the way to ultimately control people like that’s what they wanted. And you have to look at this from that perspective because Hoffman, he was trying to liberate people from mental health issues and open up their consciousness and awareness for healing purposes. The CIA was using this to create a police state to implement full control.

[00:25:16] As we talked about in the last episode, that was their whole vibe was how do we control everybody? That’s what they want.

[00:25:24] So the book goes on to tell stories about how two people probably died from these experiments that they were doing.

[00:25:31] And Helms and Dulles, they set up Gottlieb to take on a full on MK Ultra project in 1953. Is official that that’s what the name of the book, you know, it’s called Poisoner in Chief. He was the poisoner in chief.

[00:25:49] So Dulles and Kronthal they have dinner one night and he breaks it to Kronthal. That.

[00:25:55] Look, crawl we found, there’s another agent, CIA agent named Kronthal. He’s like, look, Kronto, we found out that you were into the PDF files. And Dulles gives him a drug to unalive himself. Okay, I’m gonna. I’m gonna read. I’m just gonna read you from the book.

[00:26:19] On the evening of March 30, 1953, Alan Dulles sat down for dinner at his Georgetown home with one of his senior officers, James Kronthal. The two men had been OSS comrades in Europe and remained close.

[00:26:30] On this night, Dulles had most unpleasant news. He told Kronthal that CIA security officers, two of whom were eavesdropping at that moment, had discovered his awful secret. He was a PDF file who had been compromised on film and blackmailed into working as a double agent, first for the Nazis, then for the Soviets.

[00:26:54] The two men parted around midnight. Security officers accompanied Kronthal home. Later that morning, he was found dead in his second floor bedroom.

[00:27:03] The CIA security director, Colonel Sheffield Edwards, wrote in his report that an empty vial had been found by the body and the presumption was that he had taken poison.

[00:27:14] Years later, one of that era’s CIA security officers, Robert Crowley, surmised what had happened and who had made the poison.

[00:27:23] Quote, Allen probably had a special potion prepared that he gave to Kronthal.

[00:27:28] Dr. Sydney Gottlieb and the medical people produced all kinds of poisons that a normal postmortem could not detect.

[00:27:37] Now, isn’t that interesting? Isn’t that interesting when we talk about all these mysterious deaths of celebrities and so on, you don’t think they can make things happen. They can make things happen and no one’s gonna know it’s interesting. That guy’s name would be Crowley too, by the way. I don’t want to overlook that. I don’t know if he’s had any relation to the Aleister Crowley. But they start talking about Kryptonyms, which is a name that doesn’t reveal anything in case it’s discovered. Which is what? MK Ultra. That’s the Kryptonym, right?

[00:28:10] It’s. And as we talked about in part two, it’s ultra important.

[00:28:14] Then they talk about the apartment in Greenwich Village, which was one of the first MK Ultra experiments. And George Hunter White coordinated this first setup.

[00:28:25] And like I talked about in the part two, he was an interesting guy. His wife called him a fat slob, and he was in a BDSM and heels and had hookers whipping him.

[00:28:34] And he’s described a lot like Bam Bam Bigelow, how I think Bam Bam Bigelow would roll, you know.

[00:28:40] Now fun fact, he arrested Billie Holiday one time. She claimed that he had framed her, which I believe.

[00:28:46] But he had to set up an early operation at Bedford Safe Houses in New York and he would, he would like make friends with people and he had a bohemian alias called Morgan hall and he would try to get them into the house and so he could dose them with these drugs.

[00:29:07] After the Korean War, some Americans had defected to become communists. And the mainstream media was basically saying this was brainwashing and that these guys were being feminized as part of the process.

[00:29:23] Says in the book.

[00:29:25] Newsweek described them as shifty eyed and groveling and said they had betrayed their country in exchange for better treatment because they had fallen in love with Asian women or because of the appeal of homosexualism.

[00:29:37] Several commentators warned that they represented the weakening of American masculinity and its replacement by a generation of pampered kids and mama’s boys.

[00:29:47] Beyond the nation’s spiritual decline and the feminization of its men, another theory quickly emerged. Brainwashing.

[00:29:54] In the three years since the propagandist Edward Hunter had invented the term, it had become the last resort explanation for everything inexplicable.

[00:30:03] In the minds of most Americans. Nothing was more inexplicable than for any of their strapping young men to decide that living under communism could be better than living in the United States.

[00:30:13] Brainwashing was the easiest and most obvious explanation. The headline over an article in the New Republic crystallized American Fears Communist brainwashing. Are we prepared?

[00:30:24] Now isn’t that interesting? Because didn’t Tucker. Isn’t that a big thing lately? Right? Is everyone’s like all these young kids, these young guys are a bunch of cucks.

[00:30:34] And Tucker Carlson had this whole campaign, a multi part documentary about where the, where have the men gone? You know, it’s got these, got these young guys doing, I don’t know, jumping Jackson crazy stuff. But he old, old Tucker Cabala Carlson, his dad was in the CIA, right?

[00:30:55] So it’s. It. I don’t know. Then my whole beef with that was like, who cares dude?

[00:31:02] How is Tucker Carlson who looks like he’s never stepped foot in a gym with his waspy body gonna sit here and judge that other young men aren’t muscly enough like that Sounds like the gayest thing I’ve ever heard, to be honest.

[00:31:16] So we shift gears to the, to The Sandoz Labs, where that’s where Hoffman discovered lsd.

[00:31:22] And we find out that they didn’t seek a patent for lsd. So Golib hires Eli Lilly. Yes, that Eli Lilly. To crack the chemical code for LSD and try to get more of the supply for his projects for MK Ultra.

[00:31:39] Again, we know there’s multiple sub projects.

[00:31:42] This book talks about how the beginning there was more than a dozen by 1953. Like paying Eli Lilly was Project Six.

[00:31:50] They talk about another project that was hypnosis to force split personalities in order to carry out political murders.

[00:31:59] Which that really connects us into a lot of this stuff. Right? Like we talked about in part one with David McGowan’s program To Kill. Dr. Jolly west was involved. As we know, he was researching ways to make dissociative states and altered personalities through sub project 43.

[00:32:18] They start looking into potions, which leads to Sub Project four, which is magic. You know, magic without a K. And this gets us into Houdini’s protege, John Mulholland, which we talked about in the last episode.

[00:32:30] And the.

[00:32:33] The. He was the master of deception and illusion. And he was like, I want to serve my country. So golly was like, bet I’m gonna give you a job. You’re gonna teach me and my ca I CIA officer how to do sleight of hand so we could dose these victims.

[00:32:47] And it turns out, like all these other nerds, Mulholland was an adulterer. Freaky dude. Polly. Right?

[00:32:54] We talked about that in the last episode.

[00:32:57] There was a.

[00:33:00] Apparently the only manual that they found from the MK ULTRA files was a manual and magic stage magic code. Right? Making it so that nobody who found the book could figure out what the CIA was doing. And it taught how to try to administer poisons through sleight of hand and so on.

[00:33:19] They also talk about Whitey Baller and how he was in prison and the CIA duped him into a mental health study where they were drugging him for 15 months.

[00:33:29] And he called the doctor who administered the drugs. His name was Dr. Pfeiffer. Called him Joseph Mengele.

[00:33:36] Then they detailed a bunch of weird experiments and parties. Listen to this and tell me that this doesn’t sound like Epstein. Blackmail parties or diddy parties.

[00:33:45] One of his friends called these parties wild and crazy. Along with all the sex.

[00:33:51] All the sex and what have you. Another reported that you’d be very, very surprised at who attended some of these events.

[00:34:01] What does that sound like? What does that sound like? Little Eyes Wide Shutty.

[00:34:06] Then they have a Whole chapter about Frank Olson who fell or jumped from the window, and Robert Lashbrook who was in the room with him. He was like, hey, I didn’t see nothing.

[00:34:15] You know, he’s, he’s. I, I think he just looked out the window, decided he was going to jump, and he just waited in the room, apparently until the cops showed up. He didn’t want to go nowhere. And it turned out that Olson wanted to quit the CIA because he was disturbed by what they were doing with these, these experiments. And he was himself dosed before his death. And we know this whole story because we talked about it last episode. But the CIA, they admitted to dosing him without his consent, and that’s what they paid out his family for. But they did not admit to murdering him, even though they exhumed the body and there was foul play involved.

[00:34:51] So Sidney Gottlieb’s mentor, Ira Baldwin, he knew Frank Olson through the University of Wisconsin.

[00:34:58] In fact, he had sent him to Edgewood Arsenal and for Dietrich early in the MK Project. Right, so let’s see here. So Baldwin, he was in World War II and he was all familiar with all this Nazi stuff going on. So he also thought like, hey, you know, this is, we got to do this or whatever.

[00:35:21] Then we go back to Operation Midnight Climax. This was like the second iteration of the George Hunter White Bedford’s Bedford experiments.

[00:35:33] At this point, Eli Lilly breaks the LSD code and they start cranking out LLSD for the CIA through sub project 18.

[00:35:40] And in 1954, there was a memo warning of CIA agents dosing punch bowls at parties. Because, I mean, I guess they had to tell them, I don’t know, maybe that was their way of sort of getting ahead of it and be like, hey, well, if you, if you do this, that’s on you.

[00:35:56] They talk about various studies. One study, they were feeding uranium laced cereal to mentally handicapped children.

[00:36:03] That’s how crazy these people were. Another study, they were doing psychic driving processes. We talked about this in the last episode with Ooh and Cameron at Allen Memorial Hospital. And the psychic driving process was deep patterning through sensory deprivation, then electroshock therapy, 30 to 40 times normal strength. Then you would feed them LSD with minimal food or water or oxygen. You’d strap a helmet on them and you’d repeat crazy phrases in their ear like, my mother hates me.

[00:36:36] And the whole idea was it would strip your mind blank, right? And they would do this for months.

[00:36:44] It said in the book they would turn valedictorians into drooling babies with the next Plan being after you strip a bear to implant new thoughts entirely.

[00:36:56] And what’s sad is the victims, they would sign up for this, they had anxiety or depression and they were like, okay, maybe you guys can help me.

[00:37:05] How about they’re psycho nerds and they’re not going to help you. They’re going to make it worse.

[00:37:09] So Gottlieb would funnel money into all these sub projects and contracts. And the CIA at some point, like doesn’t even know what he’s doing.

[00:37:17] And that’s where we get sub project 42, which is operation Midnight Climax in San Francisco. And this would be.

[00:37:25] They would feed victims drugs. But this time what they would also do is they would use prostitutes to lure the men in. Because I guess George Hunter way got tired of trying to make friends with everybody. He’s like, let’s just got some prostitutes to do it.

[00:37:39] Hence the name Operation Climax, right?

[00:37:43] And Gotley wanted to get to the bottom of how also how sex could be part of mind control. And, and he was into Alfred Kinsey, who was studying sex, but he thought, you know, Kinsey was too clinical to be useful. Which is kind of crazy because Kinsey was into sex, magic and Crowley. So I mean, if that’s inside of how freaking horny these nerds were, they thought Kinsey was straight laced. Kenzie was also in. There’s a photo of him and Kenneth Anger over the Abbey of Thalima in Italy.

[00:38:16] But God leave. He was a freak. He was a freak. He would always get over there when they were doing Operation Midnight Climax and, and he would, he would sample the goods. He was banging these hookers, right? He was also banging George Hunter White’s wife.

[00:38:31] And he knew it was happening. George Underwife knew it was happening. And he, I don’t know, he might have been kind of. He was, like I said, he was kind of a freak to begin with. So he was probably watching.

[00:38:39] But yeah, Zinni, golly, this guy ain’t no choir boy, right?

[00:38:44] So then Congress, they, they start making oversights committee because there’s all these rumors of the CIA doing this wild stuff and messing with foreign governments and Nazis and sex parties and dosing people.

[00:38:59] But the problem is the MK Ultra program was the highest top secret government program.

[00:39:04] And the reason for that is because if it ever leaked, it was going to shut down the whole thing, obviously.

[00:39:10] So all these attempts to research, have committees look into it, get shot down in the Senate under the claim, like, look, when the CIA needs full secrecy, they’re trying to protect America. All right?

[00:39:22] So Things are starting to get wacky.

[00:39:25] They also talk. They have a little side quest on psilocybin in the book through Gordon Watson. He was a Wall street banker for JP Morgan, and he was the one investigating Oaka Mexico mushroom rituals done by Maria Sabina.

[00:39:40] 1957. He writes seeking the Magic Mushroom for Life magazine. And this is how the CIA found out about it.

[00:39:47] And the CIF was also interested in mushrooms through an. Through assassinations because there was a Roman story of a woman assassinating a man with mushrooms.

[00:39:59] They called it God’s flesh, all right?

[00:40:02] And. Or I’m sorry, the psilocybin, I believe, was called God’s flesh. So they looked into that. That’s why they kind of reached out to Gordon Watson, because Watson and his wife, they were the first outsiders to be a part of this ritual in Mexico, which had the schizophrenic effect of separating the mind from the body, which is what the CIA was interested in.

[00:40:23] So the CIA sends a bunch of money to Gordon Watson through sub project 58, and he takes CIA agent James Moore to meet Maria Sabina and get some mushies.

[00:40:35] And Wasson said he didn’t really. It sound like he didn’t like Agent Moore. He said that Moore had no empathy for what was going on and hated it because he got sick. But More proceeds to take some back with him to the lab to get studied. Right.

[00:40:50] And the Lawson article asks if divine mushrooms behind the ancient mysteries were ways of opening up the doors of perception. And this is the first time I saw this term. Not I saw it, but Huxley’s book wouldn’t come out until a few Years later, or 1954, I should say.

[00:41:07] So I don’t know who got that first.

[00:41:11] And here’s where the book gets super interesting. And this was actually the spark that got me to do this whole MK Ultra Deep Dive series. Well, one of a couple sparks, right?

[00:41:21] It talks about in this book in Boysner and Chief, it talks about how science fiction basically gave these nerds the fantasy about mind control.

[00:41:33] And it’s another example to me of how they want to make fiction, science fiction become reality so bad, right? Space travel and AI gods and mind control, when the real question is like, is this even possible?

[00:41:53] And maybe sometimes you could, right? Sometimes these fictional writers, they tap into something real.

[00:42:00] So I mean, to be fair, who knows?

[00:42:03] So there’s a book. This is the best quote of the whole book. I think it says in here, the stories they imbibed as children and adults made those fears seem real. Lost in the blurry borderland between the fantasy and truth of mind control, they could not bring themselves to recognize the fantasy as a product of creative imagination.

[00:42:21] What the imagination could conceive, they believed the clandestine world could make real. MK ULTRA was an attempt to invent a new reality.

[00:42:30] And that’s what we’re talking about here. All right?

[00:42:34] And in the book it talks about Manchurian Candidate, which was obviously fiction, started to become a reality in some of these nerds heads, right? They started getting scared. They’re like, oh, wait a minute, maybe they can do this, right?

[00:42:47] And the fiction basically helps shape the belief that mind control can happen. It says in here, Golib and his mind control warriors had begun shaping the fictional world that once shaped them.

[00:42:58] Because, recall, they told the public that the prisoners of war were brainwashed into being these feminized commies, which wasn’t true.

[00:43:10] It wasn’t true. It started with their BS disinformation about the Cold War scares of communism.

[00:43:18] And it went full circle to them thinking they can make it real.

[00:43:24] The book goes through not a very flattering picture of Golly. Golib wanted to become a Svengali, which is a term that goes back to a story called trilby from the 1800s. And if you look that up, it says it’s about a quote, scheming, you know, who, who does not bathe. Which sounds very, you know, anti and kind of shady, right?

[00:43:52] But that’s what the story was. It was back in the 1800s. And this, this, this person seduces a beautiful young woman to become his lover.

[00:44:02] And yes, these are old tropes, but that term swim Golly is still used today just to mean someone who manipulates. But that’s where it originates from. And when I went to research it online, you wouldn’t believe I found some stumbling blocks from like, Chad gbd that was like, oh man, that’s. It ain’t like that. And I’m like, was, was it this? And they were like, oh yeah, it’s that.

[00:44:23] Anyway, Golly wanted to be a Svengali.

[00:44:29] This is no different than these nerds. You know, Elon Musk wants to be an astronaut living on Mars.

[00:44:36] These guys want to talk to aliens.

[00:44:40] And the whole idea of mind control was born from fictional stories that the CIA was reading and even falsely creating in the Mastery mainstream media through Operation Mockingbird.

[00:44:52] The book goes through other examples. It goes back to 1845. Edgar Allan Poe had a tale of mesmerism called the Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar.

[00:45:01] Also an 1890s story called the Realm of the Unreal about a magician.

[00:45:06] It goes back to the cabinet of Dr. Caligari in was it 1944, I think. But it ultimately it talks about Macbeth, which I found very interesting.

[00:45:18] As you know, we interviewed Robert Frederick about Shakespeare.

[00:45:22] But in the book here it talks about Macbeth being a mind control story.

[00:45:27] It says when Macbeth and bank Banquo. Sorry guys, I don’t. I’ve never read Shakespeare. Banquio Meet the three prophetic witches. the opening of Shakespeare’s play. They wonder, have we eaten on that insane route that takes. The reason Prisoner MK Ultra was no more or less than a search for that insane root, a drug, potion or technique that would allow them to imprison reason.

[00:45:51] Science told them that no such pathway into the human psyche exists.

[00:45:55] Creative imagination suggested the opposite. Got Lebanon’s chemical warriors believed they could transform a persistent legend into reality. Propelled by Cold War terrors, they fell under the spell of imagination.

[00:46:11] The book also talks about Arthur Kessler and Orwell and Huxley and these things were like influencing the ideas of these people. You know, you can throw in Edward Bernays being a part of this whole thing of.

[00:46:24] I think they were just wondering their limitations. How far can these things really go, you know? And it goes through films like Clockwork Orange, but Manchurian Candidate is kind of the goat of all the mind control stories, right?

[00:46:39] So by the 1960s, the CIA, they start realizing that none of these fictional depictions were achievable simultaneously.

[00:46:52] Why?

[00:46:53] While Americans start to believe it could be real because of fiction.

[00:46:58] So mind control is of course fiction is the sort of bottom line to all of this, okay?

[00:47:05] But it gets. Things get blurry because they put so much disinformation out into the world. And it’s funny that the CIA starts learning that it’s not achievable while the American public starts thinking it is. Okay?

[00:47:20] So got Leap had created these cyanide tablets like the ones that Goring had taken. And the YouTube pilots would carry them. It starts going into his other experiments. He would do. He made a bunch of like weaponry and all kinds of stuff, right?

[00:47:36] They tried to put this, this sort of poison on a silver dollar with a thin needle inside of it with a poison tip.

[00:47:45] But Golly was instructed by Eisenhower to poison and kill a leader named Lamumba.

[00:47:52] And he created this poison that was supposed to be injected into the food. This guy would eat it and he would die. There’d be no trace of his death. Again, anything’s possible, right?

[00:48:04] Then they tried to take out Castro first they tried to make his beard fall out so it would make him look ridiculous and they’d be easier to overthrow. He would lose respect from the people.

[00:48:14] Then they wanted to assassinate with poison cigars and so on and so on.

[00:48:19] Notice how we’re still talking about regime change in Cuba and you know, we got Venezuela, who’s being shaken down by, you know, for bitcoin or oil or something. Otherwise they would have just taken them out. Right? That’s the point. They could just do. They could just take people out.

[00:48:34] So Golly files LSD as one of the many failed mind control drugs, but at this point it had spilled out into the public inadvertently perhaps, I don’t know. And this is where Ken Kesey comes in. He heard about LSD at the VA hospital and he was part of the experiments and he wrote One flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest about it. And he was throwing parties with LSD in the punch just like Gottlieb did.

[00:49:00] And the Merry Pranksters, they helped spread it across the country with the Grateful Dead. And as you know, Casey and Robert Hunter both experimented at the same place at the VA where the CIA was doing these experiments.

[00:49:12] Same with Allen Ginsberg who volunteered for the experiments.

[00:49:16] Tim Leary also. He started being interested in psychoactive agents after he read the Watson’s article on psilocybin which was also funded by the CAA by the way.

[00:49:30] No, I’m sorry, scratch that. Off the record, I meant the.

[00:49:34] The second trip down was funded by the CIA. So the U. S starts banning LSD immediately and they didn’t know how it had got leaked from the government labs. I don’t know if I buy that, but that’s what it says.

[00:49:47] Casey, Ginsburg and Leary, they all eventually understood that it was the CIA that was actually responsible and to be thanked for their accidental enlightenment. Enlightenment, says Leary’s lifelong fascination with lsd, like those of Ken Casey, Robert Hunter and Allen Ginsberg were part of Golly’s legacy. The drug that got leap and his CIA colleagues hoped would allow them to control humanity, had the opposite effect.

[00:50:14] It fueled a generational revolt unlike any in American history.

[00:50:19] In 1966, LSD was banned in California. The federal government soon followed.

[00:50:25] President Nixon called Tim Leary the most dangerous man in America.

[00:50:30] And John Lennon will go on to say something very similar about how everything kind of got reversed and perverted they were trying to control, but it ended up enlightening people.

[00:50:40] Now, Golly, even though he was, like I said, he had dosed himself over 200 times and tried all these Psychoactive drugs, he still continued to violate people’s rights. And he ultimately comes to the conclusion you can’t control someone’s mind and there’s no such thing as a truth serum.

[00:51:00] So around 1963, the experiments start winding down.

[00:51:06] Nothing was ever found. Total failure.

[00:51:09] I mean, is that true or is that what they want us to believe? I don’t know.

[00:51:13] It seems where they would attempt and fund stuff for 10 years plus with no results. I don’t know if I buy that. I kind of think they did crack some code and they just don’t want us to know that they know.

[00:51:25] So golly, he becomes interested in the esoteric, you know, after studying MK Ultra for all these years.

[00:51:34] Then there’s a bit about Acoustic Kitty. We talked about the cat they tried to mess with. But through all this gadget experience he had, he would move on to become the Chief of Technical Services where he would keep working with gadgets and weaponry for the CIA to use in Vietnam in 1973. Helms and Gottlieb, they’re like, look, we need to destroy all these MK Ultra files because Helms is being removed from office. So they destroy some boxes, but not all of them.

[00:52:00] Then a guy named Schlesinger starts beefing with Helms and Gottlieb and he, he changes up a bunch of stuff, fires Helms, fires Gottlieb, including renames it to the Technical division. So Schlesinger writes a cable to overhaul the CIA because there’s all this outrage from the public over Watergate and the CIA is invol government.

[00:52:20] He gets moved up to Secretary of Defense. So William Colby then takes over. We talked about all this on the last episode, as you know. So William Colby, he pushes even harder to reveal all of the CIA’s dirty acts, right? There’s a report the the Family Jewels there. They talk about Gottlieb destroying all the information on the experiments of the lsd.

[00:52:43] And this is where we get the revelation of MK MH Chaos, discovered by a journalist who found the Mylai massacre. And this starts waves of investigations which would ultimately reveal MK ULTRA as a real program.

[00:53:00] MH means that’s the designator for international program, okay? As opposed to mk. So it’s MH Chaos and the program MH Chaos had dossiers on thousands of American journalists and anti war activists, hippies, you know, Manson. And Chaos was the program that led to the special committee to investigate the CIA, which then the Rockefeller Commission gets formed. Helms is tripping. Report drops in 1975. Reveals that, yes, there was some. Some buggery by the CIAs, and there’s LSD experiments and all this stuff.

[00:53:39] But one part in the report reveals how they dosed Frank Olsen and he jumped.

[00:53:44] But it’s not good, right? Not a good look. And all this is on the front pages at this point. So President, they’re trying to do damage control. President Ford formally apologizes to Olson’s family. They pay the family off to avoid a lawsuit.

[00:53:58] Golib ends up getting immunity, right? He’s supposed to testify at the Senate committee.

[00:54:05] Then there’s like, there’s a recap of the church committee report from 1976. They couldn’t get a firm understanding. They. They come to the conclusion like, we don’t really know what happened. And too many people weren’t willing to talk. And the Senate, they want more info. They start new committees. They ask more questions. They summon Gottlieb again.

[00:54:22] Again, Gottlieb’s like, look, I need immunity. You want me to testify, you better give me immunity. They don’t want to do it.

[00:54:28] So he pleased the Fifth. So George Hunter White’s wife ends up giving up a bunch of his documents after he died in 1975, and his diary. So now we got more on this, right?

[00:54:42] So got leap, ends up testifying, and he makes himself the victim of the CIA. And he snitches on his superiors like Alan Dulles and Helms, and he avoids directly answering anything. And he keeps claiming that he doesn’t remember and pleading the Fifth, Right?

[00:54:58] So the book goes into the rest of his life. He gets older, becomes more of a hippie.

[00:55:02] It goes through about how Frank Olson’s son exhumed the body and found the blow to the head.

[00:55:09] Talks about the CIA assassination manual and how they found that a bunch of MK Ultra victims are suing the CIA.

[00:55:18] And ultimately Golly commits suicide. He. He. The claim is that he fell on his sword to protect the CIA. Some say it was stressed for multiple lawsuits.

[00:55:28] And the book continues on and talks about a bunch of characters, Jolly west and Whitey Ballger, who said he was going to kill Pfeiffer, the guy who dosed him. And it goes through all these scientists and what happened to them and so on. And talks about how Helms lied under oath because the CIA has a law of secrecy that allows for that sort of behavior.

[00:55:48] Kind of crazy.

[00:55:49] Talks about the Kubark manual that was written for interrogation and torture based on Owen Cameron’s experiments that was declassified in 2014.

[00:55:59] Used in Latin America. Latin America. To suppress communists, also using Vietnam and the Phoenix program, which the book says 20, 000 people were killed using that manual.

[00:56:10] And then it goes on to talk about how it was used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. So in conclusion, I would say this is probably the best book on MK ultra, in my opinion. Very dense, lots of good information.

[00:56:27] I liked how it connected into the science fiction elements.

[00:56:31] It gives you a good broad understanding who all the characters were. So if you wanted to dig deeper into any of these things, I mean, I would, I would advocate. This is probably the best book on MK Ultra from the ones I read. It could be other ones I haven’t read that are better. I don’t know. Oh, and shout out to my man Jordan from Win and See Coffee sent me this book I think he sent to me like three years ago. And it just sat there because, you know, it is like, I gotta. I gotta. Something’s gotta spark the interest.

[00:56:57] And in fact, I would have all my little tabs in it, but I actually ended up buying it on Amazon and Audible, and that’s how I ended up consuming it through Walking the Dog and reading it on my computer mostly.

[00:57:11] But it, it is a good book. So it sparked the whole series, I would argue. And I figured, you know, we talk about MKR all the time, why not fully understand it? And the truth is, like, we never will fully understand it. We don’t have all the docs.

[00:57:25] And most of those nerds took a vow of silence. The omerta was for real.

[00:57:30] What we do know is that the. The stuff we do know was horrific. So imagine the stuff they’re hiding.

[00:57:38] And again, to throw the devil’s advocate argument out there, was any of this necessary? Because maybe there’s worse monsters out there. Out there? I don’t know. Those torture camp things make me wonder about the reality of warfare. Either way, not good. Not good.

[00:57:54] So strap in, because Part four is where we’re going to get into more speculative and wild allegations made by Kathy o’ Brien with Project Monarch in Transformation of America, as well as we’re going to briefly go into Tom o’ Neill’s Chaos book with Charles Manson. That’s another massive book, so we can’t go too deep into it.

[00:58:16] And given all the wild stuff happening in the factual books, I would say it’s not impossible to believe Kathy o’, Brien, but I’m going to let you be the judge. All right, we’re going to go through the book.

[00:58:26] You’re going to be shocked.

[00:58:28] So stay subscribed. For part four.

[00:58:31] Till next time. Stay positive, Sam.